tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post7907390728966885795..comments2024-03-28T10:14:58.693+00:00Comments on The Good the Bad and the Insulting: Telltale Games - The Beauty of Meaningfully Meaningless ChoicesBellariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-72327822848896746822017-07-29T14:03:05.123+01:002017-07-29T14:03:05.123+01:00If I remember right, wasn't the reason the bas...If I remember right, wasn't the reason the base was invaded in the first place because they thought an ancient ancestor was down there, and/or because they were just really hardcore environmentalists? It's been a very long time since I played the game but I do remember them saying something about how they could have increased their extractions by a lot if the government wasn't so scared of their environment being polluted (and that killing the fish would pollute the environment more), so even though there wasn't really a warning about the fish they do warn you about polluting the sea.<br />That being said my positive isn't really about the choice with the fish (as I'll agree there isn't much warning for how serious the consequences will be) so much as it is about the aftermath of that choice since even if you never plan to go back there, you'll always be reminded that it's a place you can't ever visit again, and just that impression helps it feel big.<br /><br />I'll agree that the actions you do need to be brought up by others, and it's what I was trying to get at with saying that Telltale's decisions feel like they have no weight to them. Yes it reflects on my character, but if that never comes into play again then what's the point of it? It might as well be one of those Until Dawn sliders that while they were neat for giving character, had no application in game (that I'm aware of at least).<br /><br />Sometimes it gets really bad, for example in Season 1 of the Walking Dead Clementine can just flat out forget about things you did despite them telling you that she'll remember you did them, even if some of them should have scarred her for life. Also the next seasons didn't even try to pretend like your choices had any consequence or shaped her in any way (apparently watching a guy get speared and killed with a pitchfork when you're 8 has the same long-term reaction as not seeing that).<br /><br />If the Crooked Man actually did use his influence to turn the people against you then I could buy it. However he starts making them think you're the bad guy by painting himself in a positive light, and you in a negative light. Sorry, but I'm simply not going to buy that for every possible outcome I could choose in that game, that shouldn't happen and the more virtuous you are, the more underhanded he should have to become to turn the people against you.<br /><br />I'm perfectly fine with having the tables turned against me, but if you're going to do that it must make sense. Having a character who's been established as evil this entire time suddenly go "I did nothing wrong, you're the bad guy!" And have that work regardless of anything I can do is something I'm going to call out, because it doesn't make any sort of sense. Why give me the dialogue if it changes nothing? Why did I plan for this sort of event before if I can't do anything about it? Why is Bigby completely incompetent on proving the Crooked Man as evil when you can bring up all of his previous crimes? My point is that there's no reason for people to take his word over yours if you've been virtuous. Why don't you just call for a time out to gather extra witnesses that weren't there when you did the trial? It's not as if the well runs on a time limit or something, so why was everyone in such a rush to get this wrapped up? <br />Also why aren't I allowed to butt in while the Crooked Man spews his bullshit? He calls out the stuff you say as having no proof behind it, yet that argument can be used against everything he says and I'm not allowed to say it for some reason, nor am I allowed to try appealing to everyone else to believe me the same way the Crooked Man is. Even if I'm playing a cruel Bigby here, for some reason he decides now is the time to be civilized and just let somebody else speak and turn everyone against him? Why? At this point that isn't in character for him at all.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-34732768826794921762017-07-29T12:25:53.144+01:002017-07-29T12:25:53.144+01:00Thank you indeed, both for welcoming me back and y...Thank you indeed, both for welcoming me back and your thoughts. There were a few comments, mostly well wishes thankfully, which I needed to properly approve but there was nothing truly horrific to come back to thankfully. Things will likely still be rough for a few days yet, but with any luck we should start to get back to normal relatively soon.<br /><br />That said, in regards to your comments, I can both agree and disagree with them. I will admit that the fish choice from KOTOR was one which I sidestepped as almost everyone agrees it was horribly botched. The idea itself seemed to work slightly as it had some impact in limiting supplies and areas atop of exiling you from Manaan, but there's also no hints to it. Nothing which implies that killing the damn thing is a really bad idea or that it's anything more than a predator. It's just one of those bits which shoves something into your hands with little to no context and then demands you make a decision, but without even doing that properly.<br /><br />That said, I will still argue that there is some weight and benefit to Talltale's events, and even certain key decisions. Each to their own of course, but mercy killing someone or leaving them to painfully bleed out is going to reflect upon your character no matter how it is commented upon, as will any act of charity. The trick they need to balance is being able to let this be commented upon by others, reflected upon and even slightly alter interactions or close certain doors while still following the same basic plot. As you pointed out here though, that's something they've been bad at with many points and even with their successes of late it's an element which continues to make them stumble. Personally I wouldn't even mind if things did just largely play out the same way so long as characters reacted to your own people a little differently, or they gave some emotional responses, but as you cite there at times it will just skip certain bits to completely overlook things.<br /><br />With that being said, I'm actually willing to bat for the ending to A Wolf Among Us for a few reasons. Flawed as it might be, I can accept that the Crooked Man could turn these people against you given how many hooks he has in them and information he holds over them. Furthermore, a point often brought up in the setting's comics was the difficulty many fables had in adapting to the real world, so their manipulation is a bit easier to swallow. In addition, the fact you are given the option to decide upon his fate helps in a few regards. It's either bloody vengeance or utter humiliation for him, after all, and there are a few moments which does suggest that point is what will set Bigby's image in their mind once and for all; either as a brutal enforcer or someone actually willing to uphold justice as needed. Admittedly it might also help that I personally liked the twist on the whole due to what it represented, and that there was another outside force at work there. Even if it took some control away from you for the finale, it was the sort of last-second move I would normally expect from a murder mystery and added another unexpected layer to the story. Combined with a final choice I actually quite liked - how you could choose whether to have Bibgy give a "Forget it, i've got bigger things to worry about" or chase down the person incolced - it honestly didn't bother me quite so much as others had. Admittedly, this could also be thanks to the far worse Game of Thrones option overshadowing it as well.<br /><br />Also, yeah, I will definitely agree that if it comes down to the two Cage's creations handle some of these ideas far better than others. Beyond: Two Souls might have featured similar railroading in parts, but it honestly executed many of the same concepts as Telltale with far more effectiveness. Unfortunately, i'll have to take your word for Heavy Rain though, as that's one i never got around to picking up unfortunately.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-355277847761373032017-07-25T06:58:11.370+01:002017-07-25T06:58:11.370+01:00It's nice to see you back. While I didn't ...It's nice to see you back. While I didn't reply to your previous post (because I figured I'd just be repeating myself) It's always sad when something like that comes up and I'm glad it seems like everyone understood why the content updates slowed down (that I can see anyway, who knows if there's people there who you didn't approve the comments for).<br /><br />As for this, I don't really have a problem with the ending of a game being dependent on the last couple of choices in it. There's more decisions that matter besides the ending of the game, and that's all I'm asking for, decisions that have actual weight behind them. <br />In KotOR for example, I kill what appears to be a giant fish, and am then barred from ever accessing that planet ever again (If I survive my trial which I might not). That is a decision that has actual weight behind it.<br /><br />Telltale however has many decisions with no weight behind them and only gives an impression that what you do actually matters. This isn't so bad however, many older games also did this and some of those are classics, however those games also didn't do much to dissuade you about the idea that they're a linear adventure, so that right after you did a decision something would happen to railroad you back onto the plot proper so that you wouldn't get the impression what you did actually mattered.<br />Telltale doesn't do this, they tell you that what you're doing will matter, then they say with your choices that they actually matter, however when the time comes for the payoff, they either ignore the choices you made, or pretend that you made different choices than the ones you actually did. Better yet, in many cases the plot will actively blame you for something going wrong even if the choices you made were to prevent it from happening and you can't ever call the game out on this because it isn't programmed to take such choices into account.<br /><br />This is why I always kill the Crooked Man in Wolf Among Us. If he lives I'm treated to one of the most insulting scenes I've seen in a game where he starts turning the populace against you no matter what you do and now matter how much you try to support them, and it's only through a lying Dues Ex Machina that you're able to condemn him. It's taking all agency from the player despite the whole game to this point telling you that what you're doing matters, and it would have been far better if the ending would differ depending on what you did throughout the story (for example, have a bad ending where the Crooked Man wins because everyone sides with him, or have one where nobody sides with him depending on what I did).<br /><br />Even this might be fine if the plots of Telltale's more recent games rose above fanfiction level. I remember the first season of the Walking Dead actually blowing me away with its second episode, however that seemed to be a flash in the pan as everything past that took a sharp dip in quality. The end result is a product I'm not interesting in playing because the story sucks, my decisions don't matter and the characters are nothing more than archetypes whenever they're not borrowed from something else.<br /><br />To put a final nail in the coffin, Heavy Rain, a game that's pretty bad has more decisions that matter because even though the endings don't change all that much, the minute moments in between the start and end can vary by quite a lot per individual playthroughs and there's actual payoff for doing well and choosing the right actions. As such I'm still interested in David Cage's games despite their many flaws, but the same can't be said for Telltale.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.com