tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post4900492109017545347..comments2024-02-21T12:08:15.924+00:00Comments on The Good the Bad and the Insulting: 5 Changes 7th Edition Codex: Grey Knights NeedsBellariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-7364552773359706052014-09-09T22:26:45.163+01:002014-09-09T22:26:45.163+01:00Sorry for the late reply, i had hoped to read this...Sorry for the late reply, i had hoped to read this myself before responding but i've yet to have the chance. It does sound as if they have tried to placate the fans by trimming away at some of the more superfluous failings while doing nothing about some of the big ones which hold back the codex. Damn shame really.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-24418392334548153022014-08-30T18:22:36.520+01:002014-08-30T18:22:36.520+01:00Speaking of Codexes, I ended up getting the new Gr...Speaking of Codexes, I ended up getting the new Grey Knights Codex. I figured you'd want to hear how much the Codex aligned with your points,<br /><br />The Good:<br />* No Plasma Siphon. It hasn't just been toned down, it's been removed entirely. <br /><br />* They seem to have realised that letting Grey Knights summon Daemons would be woefully out of character, so none of the stuff can take powers from Daemonology (well, they can, but only the Grey Knights-specific Daemonlogy in the book, Sanctic).<br /><br />* The notorious one-up Tactical Genius ability from last Codex isn't present.<br /><br />* The Khornate Knights incident got fixed, just mentioning the Knights banishing the Bloodthirster responsible with no mention of butchering Sisters of Battle.<br /><br />* The lore actually has a few pyrrhic victories for the Knights, there's an instance where nearly an entire Brotherhood is lost to a daemonic trap, another where a dozen squads and a Brother-Captain are lost in unclear circumstances, and a couple more bits like this.<br /><br />* Someone seems to have been listening to my point about emphasising sacrifice, though sadly not to a great extent, since one of the Relics of Titan is a special Terminator suit called the Cuirass of Sacrifice, with the lore mentioning it commemorates the warriors who fought beside the Grey Knights and had to be mind-wiped or killed afterwards. <br /><br />* A couple of the Relics of Titan feel oriented around supporting the army, in particular the Nemesis Banner and Domina Liber Daemonica.<br /><br />* Draigo's Titansword doesn't make him Strength 10 against Daemons anymore (instead he's Strength 7 versus everything) and nothing can go Strength 10 without combining a Nemesis Daemon Hammer with Hammerhand (except the Dreadknight). <br /><br />* Special characters were reduced to Draigo, Crowe and Stern.<br /><br />* As usual the artwork is gorgeous. <br /><br />The Bad:<br />* Draigo is still here and his lore remains pretty much the same Mary Sue dreck from Ward. <br /><br />* This feels even more like a Grey Knight book than ever, literally every unit in the book is a Sphess Mahrine or one of their war machines. No more Inquisitorial stuff at all.<br /><br />* The 'immune to Chaos corruption due to genetics' nonsense is also still intact. <br /><br />* The Sanctic powers are pretty decent overall as far as I can tell, but the Primaris, while flavorful, is so specific in use I have to flag it. The problem with it is that it only hits units with the Daemon rule. So if you're fighting a non-Daemon army, either you have one target (Avatar in Eldar for instance) or it's a useless power. <br /><br />* They kept the 1000 Grey Knights from Ward.<br /><br />Other:<br />* I'm undecided on the Warlord traits. At the least none of them are particularly Characterhammer. <br /><br />I think a big problem with my commentary on this is that I'm still getting to grips with how 7th works, since I've yet to buy the rulebook, and I can't compare stats to the 5th edition Codex because I don't have it. So I can't tell if this is still 'walk forward and win the game' or if you actually have to think to win with them now.<br /><br />My sum-up is that this feels like a logical extension of Ward's book. There are no non-Grey Knights here anymore, no more Inquisitorial presence and Inquisitors only get mentioned a handful of times. Draigo's still here, the Codex-esque structure of the Brotherhoods is still here, and while they do put an emphasis on the Knights making sacrifices (blowing up refugee shuttles because they know the Changeling is on one and can't risk it escaping, for instance), they're still keeping the 'genetically immune to Chaos' line. They've fixed the most offensive problems from last Codex, specifically the Khornate Knights and the Plasma Siphon, but not much else is fixed lore-wise.<br /><br />It feels like they took shears to the most complained-about aspects of last Codex, but left most of Ward's stuff intact. At least they had the sense to ban the Knights from taking the Daemon-summoning powers.Phantom Revengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10620031339738975682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-86505951351368366142014-08-30T01:42:25.780+01:002014-08-30T01:42:25.780+01:00I had honestly heard many negative things about th...I had honestly heard many negative things about that book, but I must admit that makes it sound very interesting. I do have a group of Warzone books on my shelf for reviewing, so I will definitely make a point to cover this one once I get to this conflict. Thank you greatly for informing me of this book's content.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-34942848973104066802014-08-24T22:18:37.722+01:002014-08-24T22:18:37.722+01:00I wanted to add something on the subject of the Bl...I wanted to add something on the subject of the Black Library not necessarily related to Grey Knights, but on a trend in general.<br /><br />Codexes tend to feature their army curbstomping everything into the ground, especially when it's a Space Marine army. This is fair enough, but sometimes it's accomplished at the severe cost of other armies: see the Avatar's notorious reputation as 'that thing the writers kill when they want to establish a character is badass'.<br /><br />I picked up the Damocles Apocalypse Anthology a few days ago and when I was reading through it, something struck me about it, specifically how well it handled some of your major lore complaints. Both the Tau and Imperial factions are written in character, with Shadowsun's preference of Kauyon being a point that's stressed due to her associating Mont'ka with Farsight, and there's a great deal of focus on the Tau's ranged strategy and willingness to evacuate an unfavorable position for a better one. But at the same time, neither side is worfed heavily for the other, the Imperial forces (particularly Knights and the Space Marines) are shown to be formidable in their own right and the last story in the anthology is basically about Shadowsun and Kor'sarro Khan coming to respect each other as equal hunters and worthy opponents.<br /><br />Another thing was that the stories didn't just focus on the Tau. I remember a few years ago you did an article about the then-upcoming Tau codex, and you discussed that the codex should show more of the empire's alien auxiliaries. Well, one of the stories in the anthology has a gue'vessa auxiliary as one of its two viewpoint characters and both it and another feature humans who heavily use Tau tech (including a Tau-allied inquisitor in a battlesuit, which I found quite fun as a concept). <br /><br />There's also a focus on the other threats the Tau Empire poses to the Imperium besides the obvious technological edge. Both the aforementioned gue'vesa viewpoint story and another focus a lot on the humans who are brought into the Tau Empire, and how appealing the Greater Good can be compared to the Imperium's brutality. <br /><br />But you know the part I liked best? Back in your Farsight Enclaves review, you commented that the biggest problem with the lore is that it's presented as objective fact and thus the Ethereals are canonically mustache-twirling Orwellian villains who cover up Chaos more or less for the hell of it. While the Damocles anthology -does- acknowledge certain darker aspects to the Tau, it does so the way it was done before, through hints and biased perspectives. One of the best ways to sum this bit up is a bit from the first story where Shadowsun orders a bombardment of a hive city after she's placed her forces in the defenders' blind spots. You get the bombardment, explosions and such, but then it changes perspective to a Space Marine who notes that the Tau have probably just killed thousands of people. We get references to the 'Ethereals emit mind control pheromones' theory, the gue'vesa perspective character compares the Tau's obedience of Ethereals to fanaticism at one point, and overall the anthology doesn't really present one side as being more righteous than the other. That's an aspect I really liked about the stories.<br /><br />Basically what I liked about the anthology was that it didn't pick sides, showed both sides of the conflict as formidable (the first deployment of the Riptides shows how powerful they are and the confrontation between them and the Obsidian Knight is awesome), gave the leaders character beyond 'we lead and are awesome', and focused on aspects of the Tau which we don't see so much. We get to see a Tau city being built on an occupied world, the gue'vesa and how they're treated, how the Water Caste diplomats operate. It was quite fascinating stuff and I wish we could see more of it in the codexes.Phantom Revengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10620031339738975682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-30780992343183312382014-08-19T06:16:04.733+01:002014-08-19T06:16:04.733+01:00@Phantom Revenger, you raise some good points on t...@Phantom Revenger, you raise some good points on the existence of the Grey Knights, and now that I think about it, you're right, the new codex could at least have some kind of regret or reflection for all of those things you mention, it might even be what's needed to make them into much more human characters, as opposed to just being the one note superhuman killing machines they are now, since almost every single Grey Knight character in the codex has one defining feature, and that's about it.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-9359182916473952232014-08-19T06:10:18.496+01:002014-08-19T06:10:18.496+01:00@Bellarius, a little late with this, but with that...@Bellarius, a little late with this, but with that three-way battle I'm more surprised they lost against the Tau Empire than the Movie Marines honestly, especially in 6th edition, force weapons kind of crush the movie marines, even with the invulnerable save.<br /><br />I'll admit I could barely win any games against them in 5th edition (and the ones I had was a flat out gunline army with no dedicated melee which made the game fairly boring), and I don't mean to brag, but ever since 6th edition hit, I've pulled out fairly consistent wins against them using the Black Templars codex, the Grey Knights are still quite a bit more powerful in close combat against the majority of the Templars, but there are ways of getting around that, if only because the Black Templars (in their own codex) are insanely customizable, and here's how I went about that:<br /><br />A Marshal with Terminator Armour, Adamantine Mantle and a Power Fist almost always completely destroyed Kaldor Draigo (and only costs 165 to his 275), a Chaplain in a Sword Brethren Terminator Squad equipped with Lightning Claws and some with Hammers and Shields, would shred anything the Grey Knights could throw at me (they're another unit that can also take on literally everything in the game in close combat, even other terminators, the problem is getting there), and I didn't even need transports most of the time, these were examples of deathstars for when the Grey Knights got close to my gunline (since the Black Templars can also make a fantastic gunline lists in the game, and since I put enough into melee that ensured they would actually make it to melee range, we could both have a pretty good time), and to top it off, since I'm usually going last anyway thanks to a lot of them being Initiative 6, I see no problem choosing "Suffer Not the Unclean..." which gave me +1 Strength, and -1 Initiative.<br /><br />I'm also certain I can build lists for the Tau that would be very effective against the Grey Knights and nearly impossible to win against (especially since the Black Templar lists I run against them usually lose more often than not). But then again it's very hard for the Grey Knights to counter anything with a 2+ save, which is why I have them face off against terminators if possible (and I've seen battle reports with them being tabled against Dark Angels and Space Wolves for the same reason). That doesn't change the fact that they're an army that requires very little thought to play though, if they come up on Terminator dependent armies or even just the Tau gunline lists I've been running up against (where most of the Tau are hiding in fortifications) they have no counter to them at all, even Imperial Guard Mech lists will wreck them because that's the nature of the current codex, you'll either be unstoppable, or your opponent has heavy armour and you'll be useless.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-69070470329903811252014-08-19T05:14:54.239+01:002014-08-19T05:14:54.239+01:00Oh, I didn't mean that they were light, just t...Oh, I didn't mean that they were light, just that they were comparatively light to what they used to be, same with the setting, when I say they're casually optimistic, I mean they went from "We are all going to be whittled away, and eventually die." to "We might pull out of this one just fine, some losses, but we'll recover and move on to the next fight." Which seems to be the tone of almost all of the new codices to me.<br /><br />I might have missed it but I thought the Dark Eldar no longer accepted humans as a part of their society, in the third edition book the most evil and twisted humans were treated as equals, which doesn't say much, they're as likely to die as other Dark Eldar, which are as likely to die as slaves.<br />In the third edition, there were no walls or bars or chains to keep you in a Dark Eldar prison, you were free to leave at any time, and the only reason most people didn't leave was because they were so afraid of what the rest of the city might be, the ones treated as equals were ones who left their cells and immediately took to the kind of life the Dark Eldar lead. <br />I can't really find any of that in the newer codex, at most it just says they occasionally employ alien mercenaries, but maybe I'm missing something.<br /><br />Rereading that codex did give me an idea of what a lot of codices really need though if they want to return to their roots a bit more, they need fear.<br /><br />That's the main reason I don't like the Tau Codex, they're the newest race to the galaxy, they've seen horrors that could have destroyed their entire empire, the Etherals and Commander Farsight have witnessed the impossible happening right in front of their eyes, yet they take to it like they take to all of these, as if they're just another obstacle, not something that could end their very existence in a few months/years. <br />Even taking on the Imperium, the Tau realize that it's such a huge empire, that comparing their empire to it is like comparing an ant to a full grown man, yet they take it on with the attitude that it might get a little tricky, but they're going to win through sheer determination.<br />You'd figure they'd be at least slightly scared when they see the Imperium perform Exterminatus on a planet, yet for some reason they're largely nonplussed by it.<br /><br />The Grey Knights could also use this in their own codex, not outright fear of what they're fighting, but fear for the future, and fear that they might lose, if they want to take it back to it's roots of course.<br /><br />You're welcome for the comments, and thanks for the articles, it's always nice to get a different perspective these kinds of things.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-34612419878511814212014-08-18T23:22:18.102+01:002014-08-18T23:22:18.102+01:00With regard to Thawn, I have a suspicion that he w...With regard to Thawn, I have a suspicion that he was made to tie into the introduction of Perpetuals in the Horus Heresy books. I'd have to check the timing (I think it was Vulcan Lives which established Perpetuals existed, but I'd have to double-check), but it seems like something they might do as a nod.<br /><br />The problem with Crowe is that his entire gimmick is ridiculous outside of Ward's fluff - in the previous codex, the idea of a Grey Knight who runs around with a daemon sword, using its power or otherwise, would've been unthinkable. It's an interesting concept but it only works because Ward's Grey Knights are so hypocritical, see your point above about butchering the heretics before turning to the daemon weapon-wielding radical Inquisitor for orders. One of the reasons I'd like to see a return to Codex: Daemonhunters is that you could give the option to present a radical's forces - include certain wargear (Daemonhosts spring to mind) for an Inquisitor/Inquisitor Lord with the caveat that Grey Knight units can't be taken in the same army as said wargear. Though knowing Games Workshop and Characterhammer, we'd probably just see some radical Inquisitor Lord special character to prevent you from forging a narrative.<br /><br />Going back to your discussion of games, I'm frankly amazed that Ward wrote a codex so broken it can go toe-to-toe with Movie Marines. I knew the book was overpowered, but not -that- overpowered.<br /><br />Greater threats would definitely help with a lot of the problems. When I think about Ben Counter's work again, what always struck me was how big the opposition was. You had a system-wide network of cultists and enemy agents followed by duped Sisters of Battle and Guard in the first one, ending in that massive showdown, an entire Dark Mechanicus world in the second (I would love if more fluff used the Dark Mechanicus as they were used there, hell, a Dark Mechanicus codex letting us use the organic-mechanical hybrid monsters from that book would be awesome), and then it was just Alaric and captured slaves against an entire Daemon World in the third. The third instance really stands out to me too because Alaric couldn't win by just walking up to the opposition and cutting them in half, he had to manipulate the various champions against each other and cause a civil war to get the opportunity to escape (and he had to sacrifice the other slaves as well). While I wouldn't like to see this plot lifted ala the Soul Drinkers plot half of the writing team seems to fall back on now, ideas in the same vein to emphasise the Grey Knights winning as much through quick thinking and good fortune as martial strength wouldn't go amiss in the new Codex. <br /><br />There's a moment in one of the Counter books where Alaric reflects on how much is sacrificed just to make the Grey Knights possible, all the resources and effort just to allow that elite force to exist. Emphasising the sacrifices the Grey Knights make and what's lost with each battle would be a really good step, in my opinion. The loyal citizens who are mind-wiped or shipped off to be worked to death or just shot on the spot for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The soldiers who fight beside the Grey Knights just to die at the hands of daemons or suffer some fate after victory is achieved to keep the knowledge of daemons suppressed. Don't overemphasise it, of course, but a decent amount of reflection on that point could easily help to make them seem less like superheroes, and even add character to certain individuals. Phantom Revengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10620031339738975682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-278256507534047562014-08-18T22:31:54.207+01:002014-08-18T22:31:54.207+01:00While I can’t agree that the setting has become li...While I can’t agree that the setting has become light and optimistic (some codices have been going in the opposite direction like the Tempestus’ lore) I can definitely agree the sense of nihilism is now gone. There seems to be an element of Games Workshop desperately trying to play it safe with their lore, but all too often going completely the wrong way about it. As a result it's lost a lot of the bite it once had. There's an odd lack of variety in certain elements, and while the exact issue is hard to pin down so many books either seem to be pushing too far in the wrong way, crushing all variety, or not doing enough to really stand out in reflecting the grim tone of the setting.<br /><br />The only one there I would actually disagree with you on is the Dark Eldar, but that's mostly due to how well written their codex was. The idea of humans being accepted is a strangely odd one I felt, because of all the races it was the Dark Eldar who were exhibiting less xenophobia than many of the other races. There's a kind of bitter irony in that even counting the relentless slave trade. That;s just me though. Thanks again for taking the time to leave such lengthy comments, it's always great to read these.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-23461131315446787512014-08-18T22:26:12.514+01:002014-08-18T22:26:12.514+01:00Oh I agree with you entirely on this matter, and t...Oh I agree with you entirely on this matter, and thank you for reading my work for so long. I definitely need to say that more often to people. especially gradaat for all his comments.<br /><br />To answer your core points however, I definitely think that the Grey Knights need to have greater threats. Perhaps not be made less invincible (beyond removing the gene-seed problem you mentioned) but actually have daemons be a threat again. Throughout the entire codex there was no part where any daemon felt as if it actually stood a chance of beating them, and the Grey Knights never showed any thought or tactical inventiveness which made them earn their victories. By comparison not only did the Grey Knights novel feature a phyrric victory, with the groups you mentioned being killed off, but it had the daemon use their own drives as a gambit. It ensured its own return by counting upon their abilities, their determination and their push to find and prevent his return no matter the cost. In the end he was only banished once again thanks to the sacrifice of an Inquisitor and the inventive thinking of Alaric, realising just what her final, seemingly insane, message really was. More moments like that could have made some of their more insane victories somewhat justifiable because, well, they'd have actually earned them.<br /><br />As for your comment about the Eight, personally I think there's a very simple difference as to why they worked and the Grey Knights didn't, With the Eight, each one had their own history linking into the book's lore somehow and elements which translated beyond the tabletop. Many ideas and personality traits behind them were just that, and they not there purely to excuse some special rule or justify those stats. Even those which were only limited in their background still have interesting potential behind them or represented possibly good ideas.<br /><br />By comparison many of the Grey Knights' characters histories served only to excuse their stats and role on the tabletop. Thawn's background was a complete mystery, but unlike the good mysteries of the setting there was nothing to him. No established elements or good ideas to latch onto, just some big nebulous question which was used to excuse his continual resurrection. Draigo was the same, showing off his power and nothing more, with some vague attempt at a tragic background which contradicted itself repeatedly. Even Crowe had little beyond his duties to work with and the presence of the daemon sword was not pushed far enough to give him real character, even though it admittedly came close. The only one who really worked in my opinion was Mordrak because his gimmick was built upon personal pathos and seemed to naturally extend from it, giving him a reasonably interesting history justifying his abilities.<br /><br />Some have been fixed by black library (Thawn and Draigo) while the others still need work, but this is just my opinion obviously.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-3438053386646759122014-08-18T20:25:25.593+01:002014-08-18T20:25:25.593+01:00I remember a few years back I was considering to g...I remember a few years back I was considering to get back into 40k, having dropped it towards the end of high school due to the cost (I used Tau at the time), and I actually gravitated towards the Grey Knights since Ward's Codex was fairly recent. This was before I knew about the rampant problems with the book (and for obvious reasons the store assistant who let me flip through the Codex didn't mention them), but I think there was always an element I liked to the Grey Knights separate of their power levels. I've always liked knights and with the designs they'd introduced alongside that Codex (Dreadknight aside), they seemed more knightly to the younger me than other Marines. <br /><br />This is a bit of an anecdote but on reflection what I would like is for the Grey Knights to get back to older fluff. Less invincible, less incorruptible. One of the issues Ward's Codex has is making the Grey Knights incorruptible due to genetics, since aside from making his own Bloodtide nonsense a massive plot hole, it removes something I really liked from Ben Counter's Grey Knights books, the moments in the third book where Alaric legitimately feared he had fallen. If those books had been written with Ward's Codex as canon, we'd have lost one of my favourite aspects of the entire trilogy. Alaric and his fellow Grey Knights weren't infallible or invincible, hell, the very opening of the trilogy involves the loss of a Grand Master and (memory serving) an entire company to stop a daemonic incursion. <br /><br />In a way I feel like the Grey Knights as written by Ward have the same problem that caused Ward to change the Necrons into Sphess Tomb Kings: there's nothing that interesting about them. Characters like Draigo were defined solely by being able to rip daemon Primarchs a new one and not for any real personality or tactics. I've read your thoughts on the Farsight Enclaves supplement, for instance, and while that book's lore was abysmal and I still hate the retconning of the Ethereals, I remember one thing you praised was the interesting natures of each of the Eight. I could happily run the Eight as a group because each of them is a character in their own right. I just don't really feel that with the Grey Knight characters, particularly Draigo, but even the potentially interesting ones like Crowe don't have that much to them besides their gimmicks. <br /><br />I definitely agree with this list, though as grdaat mentioned, it feels like they're changing fundamental aspects of the 40k lore, in particular how the Warp works (hello nonsense about the Fire Hawks blowing up Nurgle's garden with one Tactical Squad!). <br /><br />Let's also hope that at some point we get a redesign of the Dreadknight, though I doubt it sadly.Phantom Revengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10620031339738975682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-51469462509905870902014-08-18T19:13:59.154+01:002014-08-18T19:13:59.154+01:00Just to give a quick example of the Fifth Edition ...Just to give a quick example of the Fifth Edition book, the time I did use the codex, I opted to choose units at random. All of them, their strengths, numbers, equipment and such, all were decided purely by rolling dice to pick out certain items. The opposing side consisted of an Eldar army with 600 additional points over mine, made to directly combat the Grey Knights. The Eldar died in droves while the Grey Knights barely took amy casualties, steamrolling right through their lines and killing just about everything in four turns flat. This was not due to my skill, I’m a terrible player when it comes to winning Warhammer 40,000, that victory came purely thanks to the special rules and raw power of the units. Nothing in any remotely balanced game should contain anything like that.<br /><br />The Sixth Edition meanwhile contained a few more games, some against other Grey Knights players, some as experiments and they usually came down to the same results. However, one particular test we did was just to confirm if they had truly been fixed. Three separate Grey Knights lists were chosen at random for a three way battle. Their opposition was the strongest army available at the time, the Tau Empire, and the Movie Marines list. You probably already know this, but the Movie Marines list was an old joke list giving a squad of space marines the sort of character shields and firepower reserved for characters in the novels. Along with giving them stats which would make Logan Grimnar blush, they had equipment which turned bolt pistols into S6 AP4, Assault 4 weapons with rending. The Grey Knights won two rounds and drew with the Tau once thanks to contesting objectives. Suffice to say, the people involved did not think much of a competitive army which could crush an intentionally broken joke army never intended to be played in tournaments.<br /><br />I do agree that there are worse armies when it comes to powergaming, but as said before most of those actually required some effort. The Grey Knights are so simple and easy to pick up that a first timer can rip through a well-balanced, well thought out and carefully planned force purely thanks to their units. That’s not the sort of army I would want influencing the next generation of hobbyists in any game.<br /><br />I'll answer that last bit on the other comment as it carries over to there.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-24069670752832897122014-08-18T19:13:02.106+01:002014-08-18T19:13:02.106+01:00Honestly I have seen the books going back and fort...Honestly I have seen the books going back and forth on the point of Inquisitorial troops, but so many novels make use of them it seems like they would have legitimate reason to exist. Even ignoring warbands, the Inquisitorial fortresses, strongholds and headquarters still need additional troops to help defend them or act as muscle at times. Even with all their authority, I can see some situations where the Inquisition would want to keep matters to themselves but need more forces beyond the Grey Knights, so it's not entirely out of the question.<br /><br />In addition to this, while there's the obvious argument of mind wiping/killing any troops who fight such creatures, those among an Inquisitor's retinue face the same monstrosities yet remain un-mind wiped. While you can argue that these are people with a better mental fortitude than the average henchman, taking such people to face and learn about daemons is already a big risk. Hell, some of them are hired specifically as hired muscle by the Inquisition to face down such creature and the people who summon them. As such, it doesn't seem entirely out of the question that regiments of Stormtroopers would exist within their ranks, being continually mind-wiped or cybernetically enhanced to suppress and control emotional outbursts. It actually makes a bit of sense if you think of all the problems the Ordo Malleus would have if they needed to kill off entire battalions at a time or deal with other organisations while committing genocide. There's been plenty of stories where other regiments or chapters not directly answering them have gotten in their way after all.<br /><br />In fact, the novels I can think of supporting this did go into this in some detail. Going from memory, Bleeding Chalice in particular featured a small battalion of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers attached to Thaddeus' command, all of who were noted to have been mind-wiped so many timed that they were emotionally dulled or almost dead. Similarly I think that the Eisenhorn trilogy did actually feature them as a background element more than once on certain worlds.<br /><br />Also, I would agree about the point with Radical Inquisitor Lords were it not for how the codex handled the subject. At the moment, Grey Knights will charge in to murder daemon summoning cultists and destroy anything remotely corrupted from hosts to weapons. They then happily obey the orders of a guy accompanied by three daemon hosts and carrying a daemonic sword howling for blood. Just to reference the Eisenhorn trilogy again, Eisenhorn himself was noted to be slipping into radicalism just by using certain knowledge from a heretic to beat Quixos. By the time he was strolling about with Cherubael, he was beyond Radicalism itself was thought of as being outright rogue, disappearing only a scant few years following the series’ end. Going from everything we know in the setting, the Grey Knights would be lynching the Inquisitor rather than following his orders.<br /><br />As for the rules, I’ll be completely honest here that my vision is being coloured by a few playtests. While I have not done anything with the army since Seventh Edition was released, the times I have played throughout Fifth and Sixth edition did not leave a good impression. The army was ripe for abuse and seemed to rely upon sheer raw power over anything else. Say what you will about the Eldar, Tau Empire or Space Wolves, but each required a bit of thinking on how to best use them. You needed to actually look through each book and analyse how the units worked before you could write something staggeringly broken, you had to work to earn a beardy army list. With the Grey Knights though? Just about anything seemed to work equally well in all situations. Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-28160534421396237862014-08-18T07:42:51.022+01:002014-08-18T07:42:51.022+01:00Continuing on from that previous comment, this is ...Continuing on from that previous comment, this is going to be a general statement on 40K and why I'm hesitant on reintroducing any of the old lore (or even the tone) into the new books.<br /><br />The biggest thing that's gotten me about the new 40K, is just that last point, the Imperium isn't losing any more, they aren't losing in their war against the Tyranids (they're holding them back quite nicely or redirecting them to other races), they aren't losing against the Orks (they're almost entirely concerned with the Tyranids and even Armageddon is still somewhat operating with them) they aren't losing against the Chaos Space Marines (the 13th Black Crusade is very slowly progressing, if it hasn't come to a complete halt) they aren't losing in their fights against the Tau (who don't have the resources to fully take on the Imperium and they're occupied with the Tyranids too), and they aren't losing to the Eldar or Dark Eldar, the amount of Imperial lives the two have claimed is a small drop in a barrel for the Imperium, and they are easily replaced, and planets are fairly easily retaken. They aren't losing to the Necrons, but then I would debate that they aren't even at war with them to start with. If the Grey Knights go back to how they were, they are going to be incredibly out of place in this edition amongst all of the new Codices, almost all of which are far lighter in tone and casually optimistic, at worst the Imperium is doing badly in all of these conflicts, but they're still recruiting, and still holding off against all these other forces.<br /><br />They aren't the only thing that's changed either, the Chaos Gods have changed from malicious near omniscient beings who are omnipotent in their own realms to an evil cook, a sex addict, an angry jock and a clown who yells out "Exactly as predicted!" any time anything slightly evil happens. <br />The Eldar, for all of their gloom and doom talk are not actually dying, their craftworlds have increased from roughly a dozen (if that) to several dozen (and that's probably an underestimate) and the population on each has increased a lot as well, the Dark Eldar are also doing great, no longer needing as many sacrifices as they used to which had previously cemented them as a dying species relying on others (namely humans) to keep their numbers up, since back then quite a few humans were actually accepted into the Dark Eldar society and were treated as other Dark Eldar (which isn't saying very much, and said humans were usually rotten to the core).<br />The Necrons, need no explanation I think.<br />The Tau went from being goody two shoes trying to help the galaxy and create a benevolent empire that was surely doomed to failure, to mustache twirling cartoon villains running an Orwellian regime and only pretending to be good.<br />The Tyranids stayed mostly the same, they went from being a galactic plague that could be manipulated and occasionally corrupted by chaos (that's actually in the old Daemonhunters codex) to being an adapting galactic plague.<br />Lastly, the Orks also only had minor changes, they went from being warlords who wanted a good fight, and occasionally they were also conquerors and enslavers, to just wanting a good fight, all they really did was remove the slavery portion.<br /><br />It's because of these changes that I'm torn between wanting 40K to go back the way it was, and just giving up to let this be its own thing, abandoning the current editions entirely which is looking like a much better idea each time a new rulebook comes out (and especially after the new Space Wolves codex), and it's why I'm hesitant to bring back anything from the old 40K into the new 40K, it no longer belongs there from what I can see.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-92137805186162949692014-08-18T07:37:55.877+01:002014-08-18T07:37:55.877+01:00I was waiting for this one because I thought you&#...I was waiting for this one because I thought you'd make one of these lists on this army, and I actually agree on most of these points. While I think the codex really deserves an overhaul, I'm not so sure about some things on this list, the points I bring up are not because I disagree with them, but because I want to discuss them, firstly some things with #5: "It instead makes far more sense for the Grey Knights to operate in a manner similar to the Deathwatch..."<br /><br />The problem with this is (and 40K is really inconsistent about this) the Imperium as a whole wants to keep the existence of Daemons a secret, to the point of sparing the Grey Knights, the Exorcists, sometimes the Sisters of Battle, and mind wiping everyone else who has any knowledge of them, this includes other Space Marine chapters such as the Red Hunters. Granted it wouldn't be very hard for the Grey Knights to mind wipe those they fight alongside, but it would make for a greater risk of the knowledge of chaos spreading, though if there's daemonic activity in the area in the first place (enough to actually require the Grey Knights) I suppose it would be better for them to be there in the first place to do the mind-wiping.<br /><br />The one exception to this is Radical Inquisitor Lords who usually have their own personal armies of stormtroopers since Grey Knights refuse to work with them, even in the new lore they work with Radical Inquisitors but no Radical Inquisitor Lords, for some reason, I suppose it's because Radical Inquisitor Lords are usually much older than regular Inquisitors and have been involved with Chaos far more and presumably committed far more heretical acts. <br /><br />I'd hope they bring the Inquisition back, the two were always meant to work together (which is why the game used to be really hard when they were separated) and the Grey Knights feel mindless without the Inquisition.<br /><br />Now some things with #3, I completely agree that the whole codex was at best, a beatstick, one you just run at the opponent and they fold, and that's pretty much their only tactic. You can try to get a bit cleverer with it, having the Purifiers take on hordes and your Mortis using S8 autocannons to down transports for example, but for the most part there's nothing to them. <br />I agree that they were hideously overpowered when they first came out, but I wouldn't say that they're overpowered any more thanks to every non-imperial army having some form of OP that out rivals everything the grey knights have, and even imperial armies can just out range them now, but that's mostly because of problems concerning the current edition as a whole rather than the individual army books, if we were to use 5th edition rules with the current books the Grey Knights would easily jump right back into the top 4 armies, slightly below Eldar (and possibly Space Wolves with their new Codex) and slightly above the Tau.<br /><br />Your #2 point is one that's a bit trickier to deal with (this is going to be a long explanation), because it's not just in the Grey Knights codex that their constantly curb-stomping greater Daemons before breakfast, it's also now in the main rulebook and in the Daemon rulebook for some reason. I want to agree with what you say here, but I have a small problem with doing that which ties into the #1 point, which is one that's also occurred to me and I've also been trying to avoid, because the current 40K is very different to the 40K that used to exist, the warp has changed into something only marginally different than our reality outside the 4 realms (and the wastes are still a massive place that is constantly expanding), and the harshest truth for me (and why I can't fully agree with you here about this change though I really want to) is that the Imperium is no longer losing.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.com