tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post4503224771548150276..comments2024-03-28T10:14:58.693+00:00Comments on The Good the Bad and the Insulting: Why Can't Warhammer Have Female Space Marines Anyway?Bellariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-51683863607953812592018-03-16T20:50:41.171+00:002018-03-16T20:50:41.171+00:00... The Sisters of Battle have not been fed the ge...... The Sisters of Battle have not been fed the genetic version of steroids from a young age, and had their bodies reshaped for over a decade.<br /><br />the reason I said that is because, from what little general information we have, by the end of the modifications they would be largely identical. There would be some difference in bone structure, but not enough to make it fully notable.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-46052855480099502762018-03-16T19:41:18.474+00:002018-03-16T19:41:18.474+00:00I think you're claim that female space marines...I think you're claim that female space marines would look 100% identical to male space marines completely fall apart in the face of in-universe logic.<br /><br />For example, if the Sisters of Battle had male recruits, would they look like this:<br /><br />https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/b8/840914-sister_of_battle_color_large.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110404052917<br /><br />Of course not. Is there a good reason why women need to have combat corsets and combat heels in the 41st millenium? Absolutely not, but the setting and art style generally makes gender very obvious (at least on humans).<br /><br />This is important because in universe logic is the only thing keeping any of this argument alive.Drew Oldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10029146765987618533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-69417978963171491822018-02-02T22:01:21.116+00:002018-02-02T22:01:21.116+00:00Just wondering if you could create a rouge space m...Just wondering if you could create a rouge space marine chapter that was created by Fabius Bile just after the heresy. <br />An example would be, not long after the Horus Heresy's ending, Fabius Bile declares himself fully to slaanesh. Being the genius he is he sets out to one up the Emperor himself by making it so any gender can be a space marine (he is often written as wondering why it's not possible and has done tests to try it). While, his initial tests were massive failures he decides to put the project on the back burner working on it over the thousands of years he has been alive. Eventually he gets results that are just close enough that the test is considered a success without it being a true space marine (think faux space marines like Luther). Then go from there for creating the chaos warband, and eventually have them be renegades.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355658595793871960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-41333296174873052032016-09-17T21:00:34.272+01:002016-09-17T21:00:34.272+01:00Eh. I can see most of these arguments, but to me, ...Eh. I can see most of these arguments, but to me, they're more of a way to say "MOST marines should be male by in-universe logic and the remainder won't be particularly stand-out while wearing armor." And that makes sense, but what I disagree with the the idea that there is nothing to gain by adding femarines.<br /><br />Fact of the matter is, the run-of-the-mill marine isn't interesting, it's almost entirely the standout individuals and their origins and later actions. And you know what, being female effects the origins part a lot!<br /><br />In my eyes, yes, it's odd to hype this issue as being important, but it's perhaps more odd that the writers took a hard-line all-male stance in the first place. For the Sisters of Battle, there's at least clear in-universe logic (though I don't really think it would damage much if a later event repealed that narrow definition of no men-at-arms), but for Space Marines, the Y-Chromosome thing is as you noted, dubious science. About twelve percent of the human genome is thought to vary from person to person, an that's on our single planet Earth. To contrast the genetic differene between male and female is less than two percent. In terms of in-universe logic, if females are too genetically different to inherit gene-seed, then essentially no one outside of a legion's home planet's genetic stock should be able to either! <br /><br />Also there's the issue of the pen & paper RPGs that have grown up around W40k. My DM once told me that a female member of his group really didn't want to play as a man, so he made her an Adeptas Sororitas instead of a Space Marine like the rest of the group. That change alone nerfed her so much she died in the first session.<br /><br />Just some observations, good article though.Georgie boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693383839816186318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-17784707865438264862016-06-15T10:49:20.984+01:002016-06-15T10:49:20.984+01:00These are pretty much my arguments too whenever an...These are pretty much my arguments too whenever anyone brings up female Space Marines, and honestly I think they only do it because the Marines are popular, and personally I think the Sisters are better.<br /><br />I didn't hear anyone complain about the Sisters in 3rd edition, when you could make them S5 as opposed to a Marines S4, or where you could give the entire squad Rending (though it wasn't called Rending back then) or when you could give everyone a 3+ (or in the case of characters a 2+) Invulnerable save, which was far better than anything else any army could get at that point (not to mention Lorewise they don't have any sort of limit to their size).<br /><br />Granted the sisters certainly aren't like that any more, however all it really takes is a new Codex to fix this, so I'm not really annoyed by it that much (I can always play using Witch Hunters with my group of friends anyway) but I just can't see what making female Marines will do or prove aside from having a group of people yelling out "Me too!"grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-40592004606145269452016-06-09T07:06:57.041+01:002016-06-09T07:06:57.041+01:00I admit, I was nervous when I clicked the link to ...I admit, I was nervous when I clicked the link to this article. I appreciate how you maintained a level tone throughout it, despite the volatile subject, and want to maintain that level tone (and level head) here in my thoughts.<br /><br />Your mention of the feudal and martial cultures that are sources of inspiration for the Space Marines sparked my desire to write this comment. The Space Marines are a unique concept in science fiction. As superhuman warrior monks, they are trained and modified in brutal and bizarre ways, take vows to serve the God-Emperor and the Imperium, they live in fortress-monestaries, maintain a life of discipline, training, and prayer, and give their lives in service to the Imperium. They are a major part of what drew me to Warhammer in the first place, they are a concept I appreciate, and I do not want to see it broken up.<br /><br />The Marines have the Adepta Sororitas as spiritual counterpart. The Marines are the warrior monks, the Sisters the warrior nuns, and they represent different facets of the Imperium, like real monks and nuns are different facets of the Catholic Church. They are different in that they are all-male (what some people seem to take issue with), and are also equally valued. (By the fans, at least. Please, GW, plastic Sisters one day?) This is the main reason I see no need to have female Space Marines.<br /><br />Both the Marines and the Sisters have their particular and unique flavor and lore. Both factions would be hurt if GW tried to retcon them being all-male/all-female.<br /><br />Fans complaining about the Marines being all-male when every other army can have female warriors strikes me as unnecessary and (in the case of the all-female Sisters and the infinitely customizable Missing Legions) hypocritical. There is the whole Warhammer galaxy for fans to imagine and create their own characters in, without any need to go after the one all-male faction in the game and decry them simply because they are all-male.<br /><br />For these reasons, I firmly believe that lore-wise, Marines should always be all-male, and the Sisters always all-female, for that matter. (Modeling-wise, I have no objection to female Marines. One’s own miniatures are sacred territory.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15587499275311246186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-61423871977548380552016-06-08T00:25:58.118+01:002016-06-08T00:25:58.118+01:00My thanks indeed for that, it's certainly nice...My thanks indeed for that, it's certainly nice to hear people appreciating some of the more rambling and general lore related material here. Admittedly though, overlooked as this stuff often is, i'm my own worse enemy on that front, trying to cover far too many subjects across multiple mediums for my own good. It can put people off thanks to lacking direction, but there we go.<br /><br />Anyway, in all honesty this stuff is actually pretty short as these articles go, and most points here could easily be the focus of 1.5-3K essay examinations across the lore. The thing is, most people just wanted a quick general answer to this stuff, so here's something to cover as many of those bits as possible in as few words.<br /><br />You do raise interesting point though, as much in terms of why they keep asking there - which could be grounds for further examination in the future and perhaps a more detailed look into the fans themselves. Would be interesting to tie that more closely to some of 40K's self parody elements and origins atop of this.<br /><br />As for the point about how they are genderless but obviously feature masculine traits, that is definitely a good subject in of itself but it's one I wanted to avoid here. Mainly the problem is that trying to discuss it arguably enters a transgender territory, and it would be all too easy to accidentally insult or present a potentially alarming view while trying to detail such thoughts. That and, atop of this, you then have the problem of trying to see how masculinity can be used to influence a culture while at the same time they lack a sex drive or even direct gender identity. It's a tangled knot of a very interesting subject which I sadly don't have the time or knowledge to really go into.<br /><br />Anyway, many thanks for the praise and thanks for taking the time to read and comment. Certainly nice to hear from you again.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-32073104770160524162016-06-07T07:42:31.766+01:002016-06-07T07:42:31.766+01:00Hi Bellarius. I don't really blog any more the...Hi Bellarius. I don't really blog any more these days, or read blogs much, but I just wanted to say that your articles (such as this one) are insightful and well-written, and deserve a lot more attention than they get.<br /><br />You said: "while it might not be the single most comprehensive article on this subject..."<br /><br />I think it might be! Certainly the most comprehensive and lucid one that I've read. As to why people keep asking for female space marines, <i>that's</i> an interesting question. Honestly I think it's because they haven't really thought about it. They are, in their own minds, standing up for gender inequality, calling for a reshaping of the sexist 1980s past into a form more palatable to contemporary people. They probably also feel iconoclastic, and may even be imagining cartoonishly hot female marines <a href="http://geektyrant.com/news/disney-princesses-reimagined-as-badass-warhammer-40k-space-marines" rel="nofollow">like these ones.</a><br /><br />But as you said, if you think about it enough, it becomes sort of a non-question. Marines are genderless - it's not a question of whether they're male or female really, it's were they <i>once</i> male or female? And that's a bit of a pointless thing to worry about right? Especially since it can't be represented on a model.<br /><br />It's certainly murky though. One thing you alluded to but didn't state directly is that yeah, they're genderless, but because they're shaped for fighting, their genderless-ness takes a hyper-masculine form. I think a female space marine would be even more of a tragic being than a male one. Instead of having the outward symbols of her gender amplified, she has them changed and then amplified.beat roninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01716307613961196056noreply@blogger.com