tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post3610301555468630718..comments2024-03-28T10:14:58.693+00:00Comments on The Good the Bad and the Insulting: Gathering Storm: Rise of the Primarch Part 4 - The Roads Ahead (Warhammer 40,000 Supplement Review)Bellariushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-50384648401598017112017-05-06T16:28:55.584+01:002017-05-06T16:28:55.584+01:00Hi.
I can't shake a terrible feeling of deja ...Hi.<br /><br />I can't shake a terrible feeling of deja vu...<br /><br />GW may not be 'blowing up' the WH40K universe, but it definitely feels (with Gathering Storm & 8th Edition previews) like a significant shift away from the dystopian, 5-minutes-to-midnight setting I love.<br /><br />I'm optimistic about a potential refresh of the game rules, however I suspect I'll likely choose to ignore any 'advancement' of the lore (as per WHF End Times)!<br /><br />...<br /><br />In the meantime, I'm planning to expand my collection of WH40K Codex(es?). I own a few from 5th, 6th & 7th. <br /><br />As someone who regularly reviews GW books, may I ask Bellarius (or anyone), which recent edition you would recommend for lore?<br /><br />Keep up the great blog!!!FlyingMongoosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-28609735436344393892017-05-02T18:17:52.173+01:002017-05-02T18:17:52.173+01:00Personally, I'm really enthusiastic about the...Personally, I'm really enthusiastic about the return of the primarchs, but i do understand where a lot of the worry comes from. I worry less about the effects of this new evolution than i am about the horus heresy novel "Master of mankind". WAY too much information was given about the Emperor and his motivations. For me, the worst revelation was the way in which the Emperor views his Primarchs, particularly in the part of the novel where he refers to Angron (who was, in this part of the novel, unconscious on a slab in the imperial palace on terra) while the Emperor was trying to remove the 'Butchers Nails ' from his brain, as "IT", rather than HE. He then goes on to mock the fact that the primarchs regard him as their father, insinuating coldly that he regarded them as weapons, not family of any kind at all, whatsoever. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-38504655683990278922017-03-26T13:34:32.113+01:002017-03-26T13:34:32.113+01:00Hi! I've come across your blog by googling 40k...Hi! I've come across your blog by googling 40k related stuff from time to time. I am very much enjoying your writing! It appears precise in telling what you mean, and meaning what you write.<br /><br />Recently I've been looking into reviews and summaries of Gathering Storm and am on point with your and others concerns over how the story has taken abrupt turns and shovelling major events to the side. I have yet to vent my own ideas anywhere until here and now. I am somewhat concerned for the split Eldar race of the sinister and the gracious, a contrast I really enjoy. As might become apparent I am not as well versed in the lore of either 40k or AoS, or WFB for that matter, as your or other commentators are - but I think I've got an idea for what's to come.<br /><br />My primary interest in this are the ideas of what this "gathering storm" might make of the game itself. That said, your mention of Guilliman taking the place of the Emperor in a Second Great Crusade seems plausible I think and, from what I can tell, very fitting to what's been happening in these books. Now, I want to consider AoS for a tiny bit. I will _not_ argue that 40k will become AoS or played in the same way, I will be raising the idea of the settings of 40k being structured in a similar manner to AoS.<br /><br />I haven't read anything related to AoS myself other than little things on forums, blogs and watched few videos on YT - but I know some of what it's about. I've come to understand Sigmar as being taken to a rather prominent and somewhat active role in the background lore of the game (more so than could be said for the Emperor in 40k I think). Sigmar and his Stormcasts are on a mission/crusade to do whatever the story says they are supposed to do. In comparison, if Guilliman sets the Imperium into the context of a setting similar to that of the Great Crusade, I can't help but to make parallels to AoS. I imagine the Emperor taking up a role similar to that of Sigmar - a figure in the background, yet important in the lore - the Space Marines are similarly sent on a mission/crusade to do whayever the story says they are suppsed to do. The difference here being the presence of a primarch - an active learder and model in the game (as well as the story). Then, in comparison, Guilliman (with support in the lore of the Emperor) and his Space Marines becomes a 40k mirror of Sigmar and his Stormcast Eternals.<br /><br />For the game of 40k I would imagine this being set up similar to races divided into categories to make alliances a more integrated part of the play. The different triumvriates thus far representing this particular change of the settings of the game. We got "of the Primarch" - the Space Marines; "of the Imperium" - the odd ones; "of Ynnead" - a new single Eldar race. The tunnel-vision focus on Chaos you mentioned could be set up as the overarching Great Enemy, not just in the sense of the Eldar meaning of the concept, but for all races. The main focus would be the good guys having to forge their own paths in a seemingly random world/universe, as that of AoS.<br /><br />Model-wise; as the Orc turned Orruk I imagine similar but not as big changes in 40k, but Ynnead with followers being one such case (and, ironically I guess, at the same time taking the place of Slaanesh considering the looks of the Yncarne).<br /><br />Obviously only time will tell, as you said, but somehow I felt I needed to ask. I have seen few ideas of what this deal will lead to for the future of the game. I would love to hear your ideas on this little hypothesis, or even just a few comments or remarks (and anyone else's that have something to add).Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13005037841839836246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-40805672222018445802017-03-23T04:37:27.480+00:002017-03-23T04:37:27.480+00:00Now for the soft reboot, I think that there's ...Now for the soft reboot, I think that there's too many major threats and differences to treat it as another Great Crusade event. Rather than dealing with the odd xenos and rare daemonic incursion, reality is still being ripped apart and the warp is till spewing through. <br />If they play their cards right they could make it so that the available planets each faction has start to become more and more limited, causing the others to force their way onto other factions or bringing about things we haven't seen before, such as Tyranids taking shelter on a planet because they don't have the biomass/ability to travel to the next nearest one thanks to both their own trail of destruction and the encroaching warp rifts.<br /><br />On another thought, what would happen if a massive warp rift opened near Tau space and kept growing? They wouldn't have the ability to stop it and would have to move, leaving their Sept Worlds en masse for the first time in their history, needing to brave the firewall (still one of the dumbest things in the setting) and basically enacting the 40k version of Banner Saga.<br /><br />There's a lot more ideas that can come into play, and I think it's the other factions being far more active than in 30k that will prevent this from seeming like any sort of reboot to the Great Crusade at the end of the day.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-53388404440671054192017-03-23T04:31:05.814+00:002017-03-23T04:31:05.814+00:00As for the Primarchs being depicted in the books, ...As for the Primarchs being depicted in the books, I was honestly surprised that they (both Magnus and Guilliman) weren't portrayed as infallible unstopable badasses the entire time. Guilliman's shown to have human weakness, and this causes him to lose in the fight against Kairos, while he very nearly gets killed against Skarbrand the same way Amalrich did and for most of that fight Skarbrand was giving him a very hard time, even though Skarbrand's not the strongest of the Bloodthirsters.<br /><br />As for Magnus, before the Sisters of Silence show up he was dominating that fight against Guilliman which surprised me, as I'd figured it would have probably placed them both on equal footing. <br /><br />Both of these make me think that while they're going to present the Primarchs as being far above Marines, they're going to avoid going the route of making them invincible, as most of Guilliman's scenes show that he has a number of flaws and is far from perfect.<br /><br />Personally I think the enemies the Imperium fight are going to come up with some way of countering or neutralizing Guilliman in the field and begin to plan around that. One weakness Guilliman never really lost was how he made his command structure, which made it so that the removal of commanders would hit the troops all the harder because they had less initiative due to the way they were trained and used, and I hope that'll come into play in future fights.<br />Having opponents who temporarily remove Guilliman from the picture would mean that other commanders would have to step up and get their time in the spotlight, also avoiding the issue of making everyone except him superfluous.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-27798877299724182702017-03-23T04:22:52.684+00:002017-03-23T04:22:52.684+00:00To be fair Chaos spreading through the galaxy is a...To be fair Chaos spreading through the galaxy is a running theme with the book and it is mentioned multiple times, even if it's not entirely focused upon. We do see multiple parts where Traitors are given free reign thanks to the fact that Cadia's gone and the part where the Chaos gods are reacting to Guilliman returning mentions how their forces are still burning the galaxy and running rampant. Even after they get to Terra they discover Chaos craft debris in orbit around the planet, showing that the Chaos forces have somehow made it all the way there. <br />Admittedly the book makes it very clear that the Chaos forces were annihilated and it's one of the buildups to Guilliman speeding up the Imperial war machine, but still.<br /><br />Granted I also would have liked if they could focus on it, the time in the Maelstorm killed the pacing for a while in my opinion, and there was more than enough time for Kairos to send the Imperial ships no communications but distress calls to further weaken their resolve and show them the damage that Chaos was doing to the galaxy.<br /><br />As for losing it being a wrist slap in the end, I feel like it was ultimately going to feel that way as soon as they entertained the thought that Abaddon didn't actually need the world and that the first book only happens 'but for hubris'.<br />Once you entertain that concept it's a little hard to go back to what it was before, that of being a vital defence against Chaos.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-58036970226890688942017-03-23T04:14:10.305+00:002017-03-23T04:14:10.305+00:00Yeah I remember that, but it's not impossible ...Yeah I remember that, but it's not impossible to make it so that Chaos can't get a foothold in reality. Let's say that instead of the Abaddon attacking a planet with Pylons it was the Tyranids, which in that case would be more important, the threat that couldn't reach them at all or the threat that was right there right now? In both cases losing means the planet's destruction.<br /><br />I'd also like to point out that aside from having everyone vs Chaos, we've also had everyone (including Chaos) vs Tyranids multiple times now. Personally I think the only reason they're not thought to be as much of a threat is just because they don't get more screentime. It would have been nice to get more than a passing mention of them in the Gathering Storm books, after all if the Chaos Armada's are out in force to burn Imperial worlds then they should bump into the Tyranids at some point.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-76822699242405299812017-03-22T19:56:41.787+00:002017-03-22T19:56:41.787+00:00I'm going primarily from what has been establi...I'm going primarily from what has been established here thus far. Chaos has been repeatedly built up as the big, domineering, threat over all others for the past few editions, sometimes at the cost of other factions. We discussed this before when the story seemed to be turning into an "Everyone Vs. Chaos" event, and often sidestepped obvious opportunities to add in the other races in one way or another. I don't think we'll completely see this one conflict overwhelming everything else entirely - and it wouldn't be surprising at all if a Craftworld Eldar vs Necrons book came out sooner rather than later - but the way this is presented leaves me concerned that Chaos will loom over them all. We have already had one Necron/Imperium/Eldar alliance thus far, and there are a few further hints of such works emerging in Rise of the Primarch. Plus, linking once again into Age of Sigmar, it would fit into the situation of one villain domineering over all others. Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-90539705044293562612017-03-22T19:40:28.113+00:002017-03-22T19:40:28.113+00:00As for the soft reboot comment, that is built larg...As for the soft reboot comment, that is built largely upon what we have seen thus far really. Think it about it for a second. Cadia is all but forgotten the moment it is done. Several major turning points from the past books are retconned away without mention, from the Golden Throne failing, to the deals with the Dark Eldar, to the Dark Eldar civil war and Iyanna's prophecies. Others are promptly ditched as well, like a hanging idea of the Crimson Slaughter playing a major role on Cadia and the entirety of Fracture of Biel-Tan effectively rushed through every single existing Craftworld Eldar storyline, abruptly abandoning or resolving them one after the other. The big event surrounding the Space Marines was resolved out of sight, to the point where it's barely mentioned past the introduction, and characters do little to actually mention or reflect upon anything besides major, severe, events which are core to their identities. Sometimes not even then, as Cypher's activities and conflicts from his personal book aren't even mentioned here. They might introduce some, as you say, but given how many of them were linked into the idea that nothing would advance past M41, it seems most likely that the writing team is attempting some kind of fresh start of sorts.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-70707928904556897042017-03-22T19:40:14.645+00:002017-03-22T19:40:14.645+00:00It's mostly a note of how the whole book reall...It's mostly a note of how the whole book really ended. I mean, out of what we got, what actually stopped to focus upon Chaos spreading across the galaxy? The assault upon Ultramar was dealt with within a few chapters, with Guilliman dealing with everything short of direct influence by the Chaos gods with little to really slow him down. The same goes for the engagement with the Red Corsairs and many other later parts. Little there really seemed like a threat, and it honestly seems to me personally that they skipped the immediate loss or potential threat in favour of trying to level the playing field almost immediately. Hell, part of me honestly thinks that Magnus was thrown in purely to show that Chaos was not unbeatable and that the Imperium could fight them on even terms, one leader against another. <br /><br />When you look at the actual ending to Rise of the Primarch, little really pauses to actually reflect the damage of Cadia did to losing the Imperium. Instead it seems to try and present the Imperium stronger than ever, gathering forces it has not used in an age and covering details of abrupt mass recruitment across the galaxy with the Imperium set to immediately go on the offensive. It robs any impact the loss of Cadia might have had, and instead makes the whole conflict seem like a wrist slap purely because they have a primarch back now. There's a difference between avoiding the obvious and not bothering to do a single thing with the very ideas they just set up.<br /><br />The problem I have in that regard is simple - Those two events focused primarily upon storytelling over all else. They're both good, don't get me wrong, and are what I would expect of someone actually putting effort into presenting an accurate David vs Goliath fight in this setting. The problem, however, is twofold. The first is that the authors writing those events were far more skilled than those currently handling the books, and had more room to work with their ideas. By comparison, many of those found in the more commonplace 40K releases have been simplistic by comparison. Guilliman's abrupt capture, his complete mess of a fight against the Black Legion and other events lacked the same descriptions and skill as the examples you cite. The other problem is that, simply put, Games Workshop is doing more to push models in these books. Unless it is someone the company currently adamantly hates, I think we will see the primarchs winning most of their fights and overshadowing their foes. The company will want to present them as an unstoppable force, will want to show them off as something which people need to get, and will want to encourage buyers to pick them up as soon as possible. While I don't think we'll stoop to the level of the original Draigo vs Mortarion fight again any time soon, it's unlikely we'll see much contesting their power.<br /><br />We have seen this sort of thing in the past, notably with the Knights. On each side, from the Riptides to the Knights Errant, the Knight class walkers are often presented as the ultimate power in many campaign books. They're often introduced at the end, added in force in some way or adapted to make their role prominent, and usually the decisive move of key point in any battle is decided by their involvement. We saw this at every point of the Damocles Books, and the only reason the Red Waaagh! was an exception was because the Space Wolves saw a more recent release, and even then they still provided a major role within events. Now that an even bigger gun has shown up, it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest if they took the same approach to things.Bellariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02652722543111095280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-83144114648272823222017-03-22T03:47:20.825+00:002017-03-22T03:47:20.825+00:00You know one thing I do find really odd though? I...You know one thing I do find really odd though? It's when people complain that certain factions aren't the most 'influential' because I have a hard time understanding how you'd define that word in this setting.<br /><br />Is influential how the Imperium and Chaos reacts to them? If so then that's rather underselling every faction except Chaos and the Imperium in my opinion, as it's another way of saying that no other faction matters. <br />To use an example, while the Imperium has Chaos, the Eldar have Necrons. I'm not going to argue that the Imperium is focused on the most, and in my opinion that's undoubtedly because they're the most popular, as you can find a lot more in common with humans than you can any sort of alien. <br />That being said, if they suddenly decided to do a three-part series focusing on the Eldar getting a maiden world destroyed by Necrons rising up and under control of a C'tan, the second part focusing on Ynnead becoming stronger while more Necrons wake up, and the third part culminating in them deciding to take the fight to their robot menace, would anything be out of character? Would the factions not depicted in those books became less influential by being absent? Would the entire series be trivialized by the Chaos gods and the Imperium not noticing and if so, why?<br /><br />To use some books that currently exist let's look at the Shield of Baal books. The Tyranids are built up to be a massive threat, one that requires both the Blood Angels and the Necrons to deal with together, and even then they've only delayed them as more are on the way. Is that series somehow lesser now because it didn't have Chaos or a Primarch present?<br /><br />What I'm saying is that so long as they have a good writer doing the story, it can remain engaging no matter who's present in it, and I think that sometimes the issue with a series might just be the preconceptions around the factions as a whole rather than what happens in it.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1831276194138109948.post-77782900903252100042017-03-22T03:36:39.961+00:002017-03-22T03:36:39.961+00:00To be entirely fair to how you described the narra...To be entirely fair to how you described the narrative shift:<br />"Chaos is victorious, we're screwed!" to "Time for the Second Great Crusade, long live the new Emperor!" <br />With the exception of a Primarch returning that is how the 13th Crusade ended, with Cadia all but lost and the Imperials finally getting a leg up on the Chaos forces, to the point that I'm not sure how they could really be a threat after that (it's hard to do anything when they have next to no ships left and the Imperial Navy can bomb the planets). I will say that I think it's rather refreshing that they didn't just go the route of having the inevitable Chaos victory and I'm interested in where they take the setting from here.<br /><br />I also think they focused so much on Guilliman mainly because that's what a lot of people wanted to see for so long.<br />As for how they should focus on other characters, the first FW Horus Heresy book showed us how to do that well and they came up with a number of very compelling characters, even among the Primarchs.<br />To use a different example, I didn't think Hector Rex's duel against An'ggrath was any less interesting because he wasn't 10 feet tall and wielded a sword made out of fire. Had Guilliman been directing the siege of Vraks then you still could have had Rex, he still could have fought An'ggrath and his victory would still be just as impressive.<br />To use yet another example, when Mortarion's Heart fixed the lore and showed how Draigo beat Mortarion it was interesting to learn how he did it. If he took on Mortarion and he was also a massive demigod then I think it wouldn't be as interesting because the size of the threat in comparison to the hero makes it all the more compelling as to how the inevitable fight will go.<br /><br />Personally I don't really see this as a soft reboot, just another point in the timeline. The Codices can form around this quite easily in my opinion, all they need to do is mention how Guilliman's increasing the speed of the Imperial war machine and I'm actually having a hard time thinking of events that they'll have to drop that they aren't going to be able to explain away in a blurb.<br />The Dark Angels for example could find themselves arriving too late thanks to the massive increase in warp storms. Simple, done. Only really bad lore that shouldn't have been in the books in the first place will really have to be dropped (such as that bit in the AdMech books about the Golden Throne) so leaving those out would be a good thing in my opinion.grdaathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722216755745063033noreply@blogger.com